tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post7097807418153786214..comments2024-03-16T04:26:25.260-04:00Comments on The Retrogrouch: Classic Tubes: Tange and IshiwataBrookshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12110998345857993287noreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-76543424823556119172021-11-06T13:32:43.622-04:002021-11-06T13:32:43.622-04:00That tubing is almost certainly Japanese in origin...That tubing is almost certainly Japanese in origin. Probably Tange, or possibly Ishiwata, but I’ve never seen any concrete proof of either. You might enjoy this article, where the Raleigh tubing is referenced: http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/2015/07/reynolds-stickers.htmlBrookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12110998345857993287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-37389243485385215762021-11-06T12:23:03.008-04:002021-11-06T12:23:03.008-04:00Hello Brooks, I have a beautiful near mint 1983 Ra...Hello Brooks, I have a beautiful near mint 1983 Raleigh Super Course, and of "course" Raleigh or whoever the company is behind the name, uses a Reynolds like sticker saying "built with Raleigh 555sl double butted main tubes chrome moly". The catalog says the entire frame is chrome moly which I believe considering the bikes weight. Anyway do you think this means it's TANGE. Also below it say's "Made in Japan" thankfully!Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915634034547732511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-88941176733797721892021-09-19T06:59:56.034-04:002021-09-19T06:59:56.034-04:00Also, Ishiwata and Tange manufactured steel produc...Also, Ishiwata and Tange manufactured steel products, and a stem from the 1970s on up on a road bike of anything but the lowest quality would almost certainly be an aluminum alloy. Reinforzati on an Italian frame tube sticker indicates butted tubing, so it's not a bottom-end frame.<br /><br />On the earlier post about Bianchi Limited tubing, I was a manager in a shop that sold Bianchis in the 1980s and, while the marketing term "superset" rings bells, I don't recall what it actually meant. I do find it hard to believe it is Tange #1, though, as the Limited was a nice, mid-range, Asian-sourced road bike, originally equipped with Shimano 600 components. It had fairly tight geometry for a sport tourer, but it was the highest-placed model that still had fender eyelets. Such lightweight tubing would seem a poor choice for a bike in this place in Bianchi's pecking order. We sold more Limiteds than any other model, and it was especially popular with the emerging triathlete market, which had not yet adopted modified time trial bikes. Bianchi was big on mixing tubing, and had many models that had only enough of a brand name tubing to justify a particular tubing sticker. I'm betting the "Superset" term meant that the main tubes were Tange and the stays and possibly the fork were high-tensile steel, but I really don't recall. In that range, the Asian models had better workmanship than the Italian ones, and we always felt more comfortable selling a customer a Limited than something like a Giro, which was the next model up, Italian-made, and had Columbus tubing and the the beautiful, but technically inferior Campagnolo Victory group. In those days, Bianchi was doing weird things like putting a Super Record outer chainring on a Gran Sport crank because they thought that the customer's eye would stop there. They were not into putting money or quality into places where it didn't show.Steve Barnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05141738452735566462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-32438658063433958872021-09-19T06:05:08.043-04:002021-09-19T06:05:08.043-04:00Resurrecting this thread, the serial number you ga...Resurrecting this thread, the serial number you gave in the first post looks like a Waterford and silver brazing is their preferred method, evolved from the Schwinn Paramount days. They have a page at https://waterfordbikes.com/fv/serial-numbers/ that describes the code they used, one of the most informative of any bike manufacturer, ever. Waterford, of course, is a top US builder and has never produced anything but very high quality, handmade framesets. They are the true "keepers of the flame" for the original Schwinn Paramount line, even though they no longer hold rights to or use the brand or model name. If you find yourself with some extra cash, they will perform outstanding repair and refinishing of steel frames as well.Steve Barnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05141738452735566462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-47503818673381822022021-08-11T17:45:30.068-04:002021-08-11T17:45:30.068-04:00Bianchi models, names, and specs are kind of all o...Bianchi models, names, and specs are kind of all over the place - and I'm no expert on them. I do know, however, that there were a lot of Japanese - and later Taiwanese - built Bianchis in the '80s. It the tubing is listed as Bianchi, then I do suspect that it's actually Japanese made tubing. (I mean, Bianchi sure didn't make the tubes). It was not unusual for some frame makers to make up their own labels for tubing produced in Japan - to sort-of disguise the real source. Really not sure about the stem. I'm unaware of Ishiwata making stems - and it can be hard to use a single component, like a stem, to help identify a frame, or even a complete bike model. But the mix of Japanese components throughout the bike are another sure sign that this was a Japanese-built model. My guess - lower price, but probably still a nice bike on the whole.Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12110998345857993287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-22746725712040530302021-08-11T15:07:48.794-04:002021-08-11T15:07:48.794-04:00Hi Brooks, I’ve read through all the article and c...Hi Brooks, I’ve read through all the article and comments hoping for some insight on a vintage Bianchi I just bought and fixed up. It’s a lugged steel road bike, probably from 1978-80 based on the faded decals. I can’t figure out the exact model or year though and I thought it might help to figure out the tubing first. The sticker on the seat tube says Bianchi A.B. Tubi reinforzati. However, when I took everything apart, I saw the steering tube is stamped ISHIWATA 0.1 with an odd logo I've never seen. It looks like a circle with SIJ reading through it up and to the right. I haven't been able to find many examples of this tubi reinforzati or any explanation of them. <br />Did the earliest Japanese made Bianchis hide the fact that they used Japanese tubing? I'm not sure if it's original but I'm also curious about the handle bar stem. It has the same odd logo with 7883 below the max height line. On the horizontal portion, it's also boldly stamped ACE on both sides. Is this also an Ishiwata product, and could it help ID the frame? My best guess based on the dropouts and the cable guides is a late 70s, lower end touring model. If it's any help, the components are all Dia Compe, Sakae, and Suntour with a Tange Levin headset. Neither the crown or the seatstays have any Bianchi stamps. Let me know what you think!! Thanks!!<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01257026525504431065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-36322664957667959532021-02-19T23:19:36.092-05:002021-02-19T23:19:36.092-05:00I had and sold a trek tx-500 circa 78 made of ishi...I had and sold a trek tx-500 circa 78 made of ishiwata 0.22. I almost immediately regretted selling it once I watched the person ride off even though it was a little small for me. That bike had a magic quality about it. Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09097466473087290439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-28814247301485567632020-11-17T22:43:30.229-05:002020-11-17T22:43:30.229-05:00Can you elaborate on why Tange Mangaloy 2001 is in...Can you elaborate on why Tange Mangaloy 2001 is inferior to Reynolds 531ST? I looked up weight comparisons and it is 115 grams heavier for a frame, doesn't seem huge.Mr. Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597031164328392748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-65244524131927269862020-08-10T09:34:53.713-04:002020-08-10T09:34:53.713-04:00Hi Brooks, To answer the (admittedly obscure) 1986...Hi Brooks, To answer the (admittedly obscure) 1986 Bianchi Limited question posed immediately above, I decided to go directly to the folks at Tange. Last night I got my answer. It turns out the 1986 Bianchi Limited has Tange Champion No. 1 chro-mo tubing, made to Bianchi's specifications, double-butted, with 0.8-0.6-0.8 dimensions. There you have it! Incidentally, in tracking down cotnact information for Tange, I happened upon some info regarding the Tange Ultimate tubing, and the Yasujiro Svelte bike, which Tange touts as the lightest steel bike made. http://www.yasujirobike.com/product_detail.php?sn=27<br />Looks awesome!!!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11564483322902284025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-76090626133834534822020-07-29T10:03:02.603-04:002020-07-29T10:03:02.603-04:00Hi Brooks, I really enjoy your posts!!! I am seek...Hi Brooks, I really enjoy your posts!!! I am seeking the answer to the following question: What variety of Tange tubing is used on my 1986 Bianchi Limited? The tubing is described in the 1986 Bianchi catalog as "Tange double-butted chrome-moly frameset in superset design". Any assistance you can give me on answering my question will be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Brooks! :) Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11564483322902284025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-15843177215391314682019-10-12T21:54:17.732-04:002019-10-12T21:54:17.732-04:00And I currently ride those two TreksAnd I currently ride those two TreksSeedshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07129656722535664166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-87818676203204371612019-08-05T10:06:24.634-04:002019-08-05T10:06:24.634-04:00Hi Brooks, if I were regularly working on repairin...Hi Brooks, if I were regularly working on repairing frames, I'd take a set of inside calipers, say six inch, like dividers, bend them 90 degrees right below the adjustment screw, the kind with "toes sticking out", and they could easily be inserted through the bottom bracket, and adjusted to feel, and removed and measured with a micrometer, getting within a thousandth or so. I had no problem measuring, with a machine shop full of measuring tools, but for the bike mechanic, spring dividers sell for a few dollars, even good ones, and would easily do the trick.<br />Semper Fi<br />John McClainJohn McClanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02675128357794905379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-38661753083759421902019-08-04T17:08:17.262-04:002019-08-04T17:08:17.262-04:00Hi, Brooks, you can get a telescopic gauge in ther...Hi, Brooks, you can get a telescopic gauge in there, they come in several different sizes for differing diameters, the chinese ones are real cheap, and accurate enough, with a bit of care.<br />Semper Fi,<br />John McClainJohn McClanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02675128357794905379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-88692282361935990152019-08-03T20:16:10.296-04:002019-08-03T20:16:10.296-04:00Hi Brooks, I considered what you said, saw it quit...Hi Brooks, I considered what you said, saw it quite reasonable, got about a quarter inch blue cone on my torch, a little light blue "rich" streaks, about five seconds against the frame and end of braze rod, and had a puddle, pulled the torch, it was solid, a bit high, less than fifteen seconds of fire. A couple minutes with a file, some scotchbrite, and it turned out beautiful. A friend should be by tomorrow and pick it and fork up, for paint. I am a fifty year welder, and started with gas, and have mig and tig plus plasma in my shop, It's just been forty years since I worked with tubing that thin.<br />Thanks much for the advice, love this blog, got my heart pumping, when I saw it.<br />Semper Fi,<br />John McClain<br />John McClanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02675128357794905379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-63762137256876205852019-08-01T07:34:17.748-04:002019-08-01T07:34:17.748-04:00Well, I'm not a framebuilder, so I'm not t...Well, I'm not a framebuilder, so I'm not the best person to ask. As for what I'd do, I'd send it to a framebuilder for any repairs needed. But if you have the skills/ability/tools to do it, I'd say that welding with such thin-walled tubing could be a mistake. And I've read that silver braze is not the best for filling holes and gaps. Brass or bronze is better for that, but you'd want material that melts at a very low temperature so as to do the least damage to the tubing.Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12110998345857993287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-88771253278910277902019-08-01T07:09:19.801-04:002019-08-01T07:09:19.801-04:00Hi Brooks, I got a question for you. On that Tang...Hi Brooks, I got a question for you. On that Tange frame I have found, it had a deep dent in the right of the upper tube, a couple minor dents in the down tube, right at the headset, (really minor) and one in the seat post tube, also minor, clearly a crash, from my experience, long ago. I ended up drilling an 1/8 inch hole opposite the deep dent, maybe a quarter diameter depth, domed a long punch, and massaged the dent so it looks like about 20 small dents, 20 thousandths deep, almost marbled, it pulled a couple degrees of bend out, and jumping on it, carefully balanced on strong centers, on firewood, I got the top tube just about perfectly straight. I'm torn between filling the hole with silver braze, because the lugs are, or torch welding with mild rod, any suggestions? Hopefully get the frame and forks painted this next week, a friend finishing up his 34 pickup, still has his paint set up, and will do a very professional job. I've got his Harley engine in my shop, being rebuilt, a 74, set up as a "classic chopper", I've been pulling him up into machine work for almost twenty years, can't find a single apprentice, something about physical labor and steel, metal, is heavy, sharp, people get cut, and bleed. This is one of the best personal websites I've ever seen, might be my interest, but it's clear, there's more giving here, than taking, and that's a real value. Great to know what I found, and not just be guessing, hope you're around for a good time hence.<br />Semper Fi,<br />John McClainJohn McClanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02675128357794905379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-59897223817839636852019-07-31T10:42:58.369-04:002019-07-31T10:42:58.369-04:00Thanks, Brooks, I am dedicated to preserving old s...Thanks, Brooks, I am dedicated to preserving old steel, used to be cars, motorcycles, and bikes, just had to ride the Giant Perigee I'd accidentally bought, and doing so, got the itch again. Is it common for frames be silver brazed, I've never seen them way back when, and been out of the game for thirty plus years, but seeing it made me sure it was better than I suspected. Is there anything I can do that would enable you to identify it at least, to its maker? I've got about 80% of the parts to build, a friend, hotrodder, is going to take the frame and shoot some paint on it, and fork, so I should be working out the bugs shortly. I'd been happy to shoot some pictures, if that would help, but don't want to consume too much of your time.<br /> I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off, because, damn it, I'm getting older a lot faster these days!<br />Semper Fi,<br />John McClainJohn McClanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02675128357794905379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-19594231655814229762019-07-29T09:13:54.735-04:002019-07-29T09:13:54.735-04:00I'm not sure I could tell what brand the frame...I'm not sure I could tell what brand the frame is from the description- but if it was built with Tange #1 it was a good quality one. You wouldn't use that tubing to make a cheap low end bike. That rear brake bridge probably says "Gipiemme" with a G, not an O - an Italian maker of components and also some frame-building bits. It would be odd to have Campagnolo dropouts on the fork and Shimano in back, but anythings possible, or it could be a mismatch. If there's a serial number on the fork, it should match the one on the frame, but lots of makers didn't bother numbering forks. I'd say just put it together and have fun.Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12110998345857993287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-61085777236885830042019-07-29T06:50:52.839-04:002019-07-29T06:50:52.839-04:00Hi, I just recently found this blog, I've boug...Hi, I just recently found this blog, I've bought a surface rusted frame off ebay, knowing it was from a higher end bike by the shape of the lugs. Having got it, (dent, bend and all), it is the lightest frame I've ever owned.<br /> It's Tange number one, 55 cm, same length top tube, has two "eyelets" cast in the bottom bracket, with channels cast, for deraileur cables, Shimano rear drops, easily takes a 130mm axle. It's marked on the bottom bracket, 550 CMWH, 89008, I suspect the "550" is seat post length. The rear brake caliper tube is set in diamond shaped lugs, pierced, on the face of the cubical center with the hole for the brake mount shaft marked OIPIEMME MOD DEP in about 16th inch letters. The frame weighs 3 pounds, five ounces with the rust removed (only surface rust, no deep pitting). It also is silver brazed for all the lugs except the rear dropouts. I used to build bikes back in the 60's-70's, when Reynolds or Columbus was pretty much the only choice for high end. I've never seen a frame all silver brazed, and it's very good quality brazing material, high silver content. It was apparently in a crash, had a 1/4 in deep dent in the top tube, a quarter of the way from the head tube, under right side, top tube bent 6 or 7 degrees. I drilled an eighth in hole opposite the dent, domed a long punch, and smoothed out the dent, quite well, considering, and with that, most of the bend left, and I used my weight and some fire wood, to get the tube straight, bouncing on the tube, frame suspended between wood, from floor. I've got a Trek 850 I used for years, cross training, (two decades in the Corps), and ten years or so ago, bought a Giant, in very good condition, being among the earliest, for some 35 dollars, it's light, I'd guess 23 or so pounds, handles tight, like the head angle is steep, quite solid for taking off, with all Shimano exage group. I just found it again, in a shed a few months ago, and have been putting it in riding shape, new tires, cables, chain, but that is about it, it's better than my best bike before I graduated, in 75, lighter, better components, and I'm enjoying getting back into biking. I've got multiple sclerosis, but I've dealt with it since 93 by P.T. doubling down on my training at the time, and hope to be able to do some riding, getting the wind I can't get running. I can't run anymore, used to do marathons and working towards a triathlon when I went down. I at least want to ride in the M.S. bike ride. Any ideas what kind of bike my frame came from? I've got a fork with it, but it's not a direct match unless someone would use Campi drops on the fork, with Shimano on the rear. It's not very important, just curious, and this seems the place to come.<br />Semper Fidelis,<br />John McClainJohn McClanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02675128357794905379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-59934257131662554512019-05-27T01:57:30.199-04:002019-05-27T01:57:30.199-04:00I just got one! It is a smooth ride.I just got one! It is a smooth ride.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09097466473087290439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-87825696140405361952019-02-06T16:16:27.474-05:002019-02-06T16:16:27.474-05:00I have a bianchi with ishiwata tubes. ReallyI have a bianchi with ishiwata tubes. ReallyAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10547534371169831562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-86648262690990187042018-12-22T07:42:51.764-05:002018-12-22T07:42:51.764-05:00I'm not aware of one. One trick people sometim...I'm not aware of one. One trick people sometimes use to get an idea of wall thickness is to look at the seatpost size that a frame takes. Assuming the outer tubing diameter is standard size, a larger seatpost would indicate thinner walled tubing. Though it would be tough to get a pair of calipers inside a bottom bracket, the ends of the seat tube and down tube are usually visible there. Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12110998345857993287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-11756859425486407272018-12-17T22:09:34.968-05:002018-12-17T22:09:34.968-05:00Is there a device to measure tubing wall thickness...Is there a device to measure tubing wall thickness in-situ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-76618074678867147402018-12-17T13:34:13.432-05:002018-12-17T13:34:13.432-05:00Tange #1 was the top-of-the-line for performance b...Tange #1 was the top-of-the-line for performance bikes up until the introduction of Prestige. OS would be "oversized" (about 1/8" larger diameter than the standard tubing. I can't find a spec sheet on #1 OS, but I'd expect it to be slightly thicker-walled, and therefore slightly heavier than the Prestige.Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07155391319606812982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-8734241403358301172018-12-17T12:11:21.106-05:002018-12-17T12:11:21.106-05:00I have a late 80's Nishiki International built...I have a late 80's Nishiki International built with Tange 1 OS seamless chrome moly tubing. I can't find much info on the Tange 1 OS tubing. Where did it fall in the Tange line?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com