tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post4419908836016782557..comments2024-03-28T11:56:48.304-04:00Comments on The Retrogrouch: Changing Positions: Bike Fit Then and NowBrookshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12110998345857993287noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-55699275557816778242019-06-25T12:40:26.072-04:002019-06-25T12:40:26.072-04:00Correction: "early mid 90s mtbs"Correction: "early mid 90s mtbs"Biospacenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-15878754585051897972019-06-24T12:13:16.339-04:002019-06-24T12:13:16.339-04:00I returned to cycling a couple of years ago after ...I returned to cycling a couple of years ago after a 30 year gap and have been mystified by modern trends, but enjoy buying and using high quality early-mid mtbs for peanuts. <br /><br />Isn't the stretched-out back intended to open up the chest more, so low that part of the body to function better? I dislike it, there are as many of not more disadvantages as benefits. <br /><br />A few years hence another sort of thinking will replace what we have today, and fashion will follow. <br /><br />What surprises me most about modern bikes is just how much style over substance proliferates, possible in Britain today because so many drive their bikes to where they want to ride, rather than riding from home. Biospacenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-47576523042546787202019-04-16T23:10:15.988-04:002019-04-16T23:10:15.988-04:00I think this article is misleading. If the point ...I think this article is misleading. If the point is to look at the position of the tops of the bars in relation to the saddle it is a fair comparison. If it is meant to be a discussion of fit, it is misleading. Look at where the brake hoods were and where they are - same place. Look at where the drops were and where they are - same place. The old bikes had better range of positions between drops, hoods and with hands on the tops you sat up higher - bravo retro!Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03306699200808452058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-37568193700716243272019-02-03T19:58:42.608-05:002019-02-03T19:58:42.608-05:00Keeping this 5 year old thread alive in the new ye...Keeping this 5 year old thread alive in the new year, it seems that what's happened is that modern geometry has done away with the tops of the bars. The tops are now the old drops, and the drops have moved even farther down. Riders now are, effectively, always on the drops. I'm surprised that no one has brought up the connection with the move to compact handlebars, with shallow drops, short extensions, and sometimes even setback tops, to move the levers even closer to the rider. I wonder if all this is because the bars are farther down. It used to be that Cinelli 64s were considered a shallow bar, but they were deep by modern standards.<br /><br />Although I spent the majority of my time on the hoods even in the pre-aero days, the small brake lever bodies with a cable sticking out the top never really fit my hands. It wasn't until brifters came along that the levers got comfortable and even then it took Campagnolo a couple generations before they got rid of the point that kept one off the tops of the levers. It's nice to have that extra hand position available.<br /><br />Since the original article was published, we've had the gravel bike emerge and I think this addresses Justine's point about road bikes being designed for the 1%, while being marketed to the masses. However, gravel races have become the CX of the spring season for the competitive roadie set, so it's probably only a matter of time before the geometry of the gravel bike evolves into something that doesn't serve the 99% very well.Steve Barnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05141738452735566462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-35602510466440338762018-11-22T19:09:44.177-05:002018-11-22T19:09:44.177-05:00Great article. The bottom line, it sounds like, i...Great article. The bottom line, it sounds like, is that pro riders ride in about the same body position as they did decades ago—they've just moved from the drops to the hoods (hence the radically lower stem height). But this begs the question, why this drastic change? Yes, I'm sure many pros want their bikes to look cool, but their desire to win races is far greater than their vanity.<br /><br />Now I don't think it's coincidence that we began seeing this trend around the same time that the shifters moved from the frame (easier to access from the drops) to the brake levers (easier to access from the hoods).<br /><br />And I think therein lies the answer, it's all about the (new) location of the shifters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-17281448868010843752018-03-08T05:42:15.834-05:002018-03-08T05:42:15.834-05:00Don't Agree with few points, overall good read...Don't Agree with few points, overall good reading.<br /><br />~ <a href="https://bikenguide.net/" rel="nofollow">Harvey</a>Harvey Specterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10586006700584201816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-62362952003238971422017-10-15T01:58:45.023-04:002017-10-15T01:58:45.023-04:00I was smiling when I read this article, in equal b...I was smiling when I read this article, in equal breath saw the visual comparison. I've stated for the better portion of the past decade plus plus plus that the new sizing/fitting formula is a bunch of bunk, period. <br />Today's sizing/fitting formula affects LESS efficiency/power and the proof IS in the sticky new age myopic albeit righteous pudding via slower times and the like which, by the way, ridiculous spinning also contributes to. Then you have "superior" carbon ad nauseam............ <br /><br />Au current disciples, get it right and go BACK to the future.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11750571105481799707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-2623134833322924372017-09-28T04:44:27.905-04:002017-09-28T04:44:27.905-04:00Would that really be better for descending?Would that really be better for descending?ITALO SLEAZEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15140599096129768075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-67739683924477614912016-11-22T17:21:40.389-05:002016-11-22T17:21:40.389-05:00PMercahnt, excellent observation about the hand-fr...PMercahnt, excellent observation about the hand-front axle position. Don't think it changes the CG, but does put more weight on FW, which could be good for descending? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12632525389266130294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-62915702704412940772016-11-12T06:10:21.785-05:002016-11-12T06:10:21.785-05:00Just got a custum gravel TI frame and i opted for ...Just got a custum gravel TI frame and i opted for a 170mm headtube, 70mm bb drop and 570mm virtual top tube and a slammed stem and a compact dropbar with just 120mm drop.<br /><br />Im 185cm tall. My handlebar height now mimicks a classic position beeing very high for offroad, climbing and leasure rides - Riding in the drops is now the perfered position for going fast and im able to ride relaxed in the drops for hours - i hardly used the drops on my race bike.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047174831350903603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-19533838698019153862016-09-15T17:18:49.651-04:002016-09-15T17:18:49.651-04:00Interesting looking at the pictures that on the ol...Interesting looking at the pictures that on the old bikes the riders hands are near enough over the axle, but on some of the modern bikes, with hands on the brake hoods, they are forward of the axle. I wonder what advantage that gives, other than making the rider lean forward more. Does it change the CG? PMerchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09708399147388329253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-51801610141679170702016-08-19T14:38:56.034-04:002016-08-19T14:38:56.034-04:00My back hurts if my handlebars are too high, and I...My back hurts if my handlebars are too high, and I can't deliver as much power. 46, and been riding the same position on my bike (same Vitus 979) since 1986. Stem slammed into the headset.<br /><br />What I wouldn't be able to deal with on a modern bike is the fact that the hoods are now above the flats of the handlebars, and that the modern barks don't have appreciable drop from the tops of hoods. I think the allowable range of moving around on the bike has been reduced dramatically.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07208582860782451905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-42231650840535501812016-08-05T01:44:20.329-04:002016-08-05T01:44:20.329-04:00What he got right is that riders don't ride in...What he got right is that riders don't ride in the drops as much anymore because it is not necessary. By lowering the bars, riders can get the same flat back and 90* elbow while riding on top of the bars with hands on hoods. This relieves strain/use of the triceps and allows riders to support the upper body with the upper back, instead of the lower back. The drops are now really only used for descending and sprints - both times where aero is most important. At high speeds, the lower you can get your head, the faster you will go. Lastly, having a high drop helps in sprinting by enabling the rider to get lower and use the drops for more leverage compared to less drop.<br /><br />I'll agree that most riders do not race and are recreational at best. The body position of flat back and elbows at 90 for fast flat riding in the saddle hasn't changed much. What has changed is the body position during descending where riders can support their upper bodies with their shoulders by locking their arms in descents and getting their heads lower during sprints. If you, as a rider, aren't concerned with these aspects of riding, then a classic fit of 0-1" of saddle to top of bar drop is appropriate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-16924835301904078672016-07-31T19:46:45.558-04:002016-07-31T19:46:45.558-04:00When I see the young ( and older) racer types with...When I see the young ( and older) racer types with large amounts of seat to bar vertical ( 6" or more ) I don't know how they can do it. I do know several older late 60's guys very fit who ride like this and Don't complain about back pain. I think some people who do not have back pain have bodies that allow them to ride a very low position pain free. I sure can't, 1"-2" works good for me, and I work a lot on my flexibility and strength off the bike.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12632525389266130294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-15968287532888412292016-06-29T17:32:21.020-04:002016-06-29T17:32:21.020-04:00I know I'm late to this party, but I'll pu...I know I'm late to this party, but I'll put in my two cents.<br /><br />It seems that the change in the ways bicycles are fitted is a reflection of the way the bicycle market has gone. It seems that in the time I've been a dedicated cyclist--about forty years--fit, product development and much else in the cycling world is oriented toward the one percent. <br /><br />I use the "one percent" term deliberately. Frame, component and other designs are made, it seems, with elite level racers (and wannabes) in mind, with no regard for what is practical for most riders. And that--for whatever reasons, including snob appeal--is what the one percent (in the Occupy sense) want if they are going to drop a five-figure sum on a bike.Justine Valinottihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10852069587181432102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-42776891099608677452016-06-27T15:10:11.589-04:002016-06-27T15:10:11.589-04:00Interesting article in that it makes you think abo...Interesting article in that it makes you think about cycling position. However, I do not think anyone can say anything definitively universal about one’s cycling position unless it is obviously way off. There are WAY too many variables to consider. I’ve considered myself a “student” of bicycle fit and positioning almost since I started riding seriously in the mid-80’s. The first pro-level rider to ever talk about positioning extensively was Greg LeMond as a result of his working with Cyril Guimard’s scientifically proven results. Guimard advocated for a slightly higher seat height and more reach to the handlebars which was impressed upon LeMond. Compare the positioning of let us say Sean Kelly to that of Greg LeMond. Lemond had a higher saddle position, was more stretched out and with the seat height to bar drop at a much greater distance. This results in a flatter, more aerodynamic riding position. Is it more comfortable? That depends! Fast forward to the positioning in the last 5-8 years with the popularity (whatever the reason for it) of compact frame designs and handlebar position has been lowered even more hence stems now having a rise angle to compensate. Although riders still seem to gravitate toward a greater handlebar drop than in the past. Saddle height for an individual rider should remain very much constant with the measurement of the BB to the top of the seat measuring .885 x actual inseam length. This formula puts the rider within one centimeter of the correct seat height for their optimal power output. The distance from the seat to the handlebars and the handlebar drop is based on many variables, such as the rider’s height (arm length, torso length, etc.), rider flexibility, riding style and the intended purpose that the bicycle will be used for. A strictly racing bicycle will be set-up differently from a strictly touring bicycle with a recreational/fitness bicycle being somewhere in between. Who can say that there should be a 1-2 inch drop to the handlebars from the seat as a universal standard? That maybe be good for a 5 foot, 8 inch tall rider but not for a 6 foot, 4inch tall rider with longer arms and a longer torso. I wholeheartedly agree that there is a trend towards lower handlebar positioning and maybe a little less reach, but one has to keep in mind all the variables involved and to not make universal statements about individual bicycle positioning. Roninhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01636299033590192140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-49846849913910566612016-06-17T22:11:38.470-04:002016-06-17T22:11:38.470-04:00Not just road bikes. I have looked at hundreds of ...Not just road bikes. I have looked at hundreds of pictures of gravel racers and seen a number of videos as well and at least 90+% of the riders are on the hoods in spite of all the obsessing over which drop bar is best for gravel racing. And gravel bars have less drop than road bars!youcancallmeAlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02578252140097961816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-38990449619289408922016-06-09T15:59:40.985-04:002016-06-09T15:59:40.985-04:00I ride old steel (50s British) and understand what...I ride old steel (50s British) and understand what you mean with the lower BB etc... One other thing I noticed looking at old footage and not mentioned in the article is that the riders from the 30s, 40s & 50s did not seem to extend their legs as much (I am from 1976, my father taught me to put my foot in the pedal and heel down to adjust the seat height). This would lead to a lower saddle position too.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16162802005251197107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-89082890718888376592016-06-05T19:39:01.008-04:002016-06-05T19:39:01.008-04:00you are correct about the arms... I would posit th...you are correct about the arms... I would posit that the older riders with their bent elbows are probably more comfy for the long haul as the bent arms help to absorb more the road vibrations... I could totally be wrong but I know what works for me and that's having my bars near level to my saddle (1-2" below at the most)... nobody's ever going to pay me to ride my bike, so I couldn't care less if I look like a pro... my goal is to be comfy so I'll actually ride my bike... ;^)Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12625613498357298160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-58714363634637409102016-06-05T14:18:26.235-04:002016-06-05T14:18:26.235-04:00"Modern fit"...meaning bars lower that t..."Modern fit"...meaning bars lower that the seat by several inches. Yeah more comfortable...Not. Elbows locked to eachieve flat back=more comfortable ...Not. Bicycle Oufitters Indyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15555271477758088948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-55635915329715958412016-06-05T14:10:45.491-04:002016-06-05T14:10:45.491-04:00It is a matter of no question that a larger frame ...It is a matter of no question that a larger frame with a lower seat hight in relation to the bars is more comfortable I think the points are valid as well as the motivation with the manufactures to offer fewer sizes being that all carbon frames require a mold and the mold is very expensive stocking more sizes is also very expensiveBicycle Oufitters Indyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15555271477758088948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-79946749500113402812016-06-05T12:41:31.934-04:002016-06-05T12:41:31.934-04:00Whether or not the elbows are bent has a lot to do...Whether or not the elbows are bent has a lot to do with what level of effort is being expended at the moment the picture was taken. A maximum effort will result in more bent elbows and a less strenuous effort will see the elbows not being bent as much. I could go into why that is but I think most avid cyclists know it instinctively.chueyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10392002038890669070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-67599996053988392422016-06-05T10:39:36.706-04:002016-06-05T10:39:36.706-04:00Agreed Earl, not to mention what's the point o...Agreed Earl, not to mention what's the point of having brake hoods if you spend 100% of you time riding in the drops. <br /><br />If anything the modern fit offers a "causal ride" position similar to the classic fit and when you need to be aero you use the drops. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04649232643905569921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-28566544424070854342016-06-05T08:08:59.576-04:002016-06-05T08:08:59.576-04:00Interesting theory but the method of measurement i...Interesting theory but the method of measurement is invalid. Why is it invalid? Because we have elbows. If you look at the positions of the riders and not the machines, you'll see that the vintage pictures show lower, nearly horizontal backs. The modern riders are actually more upright. Now look at their elbows. The old guys have bent elbows, the modern guys have nearly straight elbows. Maybe this article should really be about the modern fashion of riding with straight arms.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01836748548308721938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-69121568137495656752016-02-13T13:42:05.347-05:002016-02-13T13:42:05.347-05:00When I moved from friendly biker populace of seatt...When I moved from friendly biker populace of seattle WA to biker-be-damned greensboro NC I sold my roadie (nice old flexy vitus). Turned by vintage breezer into a roadie with drops...albiet with 26" wheels so I could hop on the sidewalks when necessary (a lot!).<br /><br />Found the more upright position a surprise/pleasure and actually spend most of the time in the drops (origin 8 drops you bolt on). <br /><br />Fantastic now, if a bit slow with 26"rs...but enjoy the ride so much more grinding in the drops.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05757759612937797131noreply@blogger.com