tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post5498109501745869697..comments2024-03-28T11:56:48.304-04:00Comments on The Retrogrouch: Designed in America: Part ThreeBrookshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12110998345857993287noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-67704851728437212262020-09-12T09:46:14.182-04:002020-09-12T09:46:14.182-04:00To bad they didn't improve their workshops her...To bad they didn't improve their workshops here in USA. They could have kept their best toughest bikes for kids and improved on the adults road and touring bikes to compete with Japan made ,, instead they bought from Japan,, and here the company is today. Cheechhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13346905705146910263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-83345630707041852522020-09-12T09:43:12.195-04:002020-09-12T09:43:12.195-04:00Schwinn could have kept their traditional tough st...Schwinn could have kept their traditional tough street bike image and improved on the new road and touring bikes, but they bought in to globalism >>> their down fallCheechhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13346905705146910263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-80598848691724390782016-07-28T15:22:57.820-04:002016-07-28T15:22:57.820-04:00I think your memory of that time would be similar ...I think your memory of that time would be similar to what a lot of us remember from that time, all over America. We actually had 2 Schwinn dealers near me -- we lived about half-way between them. One was an older shop, Schwinn-only. The other was a little newer and carried Schwinn and Panasonic. The ironic thing there was that the Panasonics and the imported Schwinns were basically the same, made in the same factory - but the Panasonics were cheaper.Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12110998345857993287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-20427176507780389552016-07-28T15:02:12.235-04:002016-07-28T15:02:12.235-04:00Another fascinating piece. I think people who grew...Another fascinating piece. I think people who grew up in other parts of the world might not get it, but back in the '70s, Schwinn was it. You could get a bike at Sears or Penney's or Western Auto, but if you wanted something a little better, you went to the Schwinn store -- and there were no other choices, at least where I grew up, in Spokane, Wash. As a schoolkid in the early '70s, reading the Schwinn ads in "Boy's Life," and drooling over the bikes my friends got as presents every Christmas, I was sure I wanted a Schwinn Varsity or Continental and kept bugging my parents for one. Instead I rode mainly cheap department-store bikes or things picked up at garage sales, because, you know, I was a kid. By the time I could actually contemplate a bike costing $100 or more, in the late '70s, I was becoming aware that perhaps the Varsity wasn't the best bike out there -- it did seem pretty heavy. At high school graduation in 1980, my dad took me down to the local Schwinn store and told me to pick something out. There was a Paramount hanging on the wall, priced at an impossible $700. The salesman told me they'd just stopped making the Paramount, but they still had a couple in stock, and the boss might be willing to deal. That wasn't my price range, I said. I probably made a few disparaging remarks about the Varsity -- "everybody rides them, but they're so heavy!" And he explained that while they were very popular, they were sort of a starter bike. And since I obviously knew something about bikes, he said Schwinn was importing some interesting bikes from Japan, for a little more money -- they had a few, if I wanted to look. Then he let me in on something. Really, if I wanted the best value in a lighter-weight bike, the store had started to carry another line, from Japan, called Centurion. Derailleurs as good as Campagnolo, build quality as good as anything Schwinn was importing, and way, way lighter than the Varsity. But priced very competitively. I rode out of there with the Centurion Super LeMans 12. It cost $230, and it still serves me now -- I recognize today it was an above-average high-tensile steel bike with lugged construction, not really special but still superior in many ways to anything else I would have gotten at that price. My friends were impressed with how light it seemed. (How that makes me laugh today!) And I think this little snapshot of the bike world in 1980 helps illustrate the story behind this piece. When you thought about bikes back then, the first word that popped into your mind was "Schwinn," and the place you went to buy a bike was the local Schwinn store. But even a guy still in high school knew there were better bikes than the Varsity. Looking back on it, sure, I wish I'd had the money for the Paramount on the wall, but I think the best value in the shop was the lightweight Centurion Pro Tour they had for $330. Forget all the exotic European bikes they were making back then -- you just didn't see them in a place like Spokane. This was what the bike market was really like.erik smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07813753353041937133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-67196804867322024222016-07-21T20:09:56.478-04:002016-07-21T20:09:56.478-04:00Thanks, Jay -- there's one more part coming.Thanks, Jay -- there's one more part coming.Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12110998345857993287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-80376960172540261222016-07-21T19:48:47.733-04:002016-07-21T19:48:47.733-04:00Thanks very much for this informative and interest...Thanks very much for this informative and interesting series. I really did enjoy reading the series, and do enjoy your blog as well.Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02883789856075552519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-666557567314271842016-07-21T18:01:16.462-04:002016-07-21T18:01:16.462-04:00There is still a Schwinn brand - but it's now ...There is still a Schwinn brand - but it's now just one of many brands owned by a huge conglomerate (it's changed hands so many times, I'm not sure who owns it anymore. I think it might be Dorel Industries), and they're all made in China, and just have Schwinn stickers put on them. The big American auto makers, like Ford and GM, would often make the same basic car for multiple divisions, with only minor cosmetic differences between them. A Chevy Caprice was pretty much the same car as a Pontiac Bonneville, and an Oldsmobile 88. The practice was called "Badge Engineering." With these conglomerate owned brands, it might properly be called "sticker engineering." I do understand that there are 2 "levels" of Schwinn - one that is sold through mass merchandisers, and a higher-level that is sold through the website, or through some bike shops. The Madison might be one of the higher-level bikes.Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12110998345857993287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-11494756854480178922016-07-21T17:17:03.193-04:002016-07-21T17:17:03.193-04:00Im in Australia,50yrs old and i remember Schwinn b...Im in Australia,50yrs old and i remember Schwinn being the dream bike for a farmboy to ride on gravel,sand,lawn and concrete to school and with mates on adventures.I never got one ut a school friend got one in 1972 and he became the coolest kid in the area. We were 8years old back then , and it was a heavy tank but it felt safe, sturdy, rugged and was cooler than cool. weekends and school in 1972. I been into Bmx early 80s with a chrome moly alloy Mongoose, plastic 5 spoke Tuffs rims ,fixed, with stunt pegs doubling as wheel nuts and road commuter carbon 29inch Giant these days.I've loved following this post. Which all leads me to ask, has Schwinn been reborn as a friend has an 2008 Schwinn Madison "fixie".<br />From seat post to bottom brkt 600mm,Prologo Nago seat,Vittoria IKE carbon forks,MTB Pro carbon composite handlebars,Gebhardt 135mm drive ring and frame number SNIT7103154FES5L04 or just a rebadged bicycle that's non-Yankee manufactured? Rohansailor1https://www.blogger.com/profile/03296789002169570078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-17524813126292664892016-07-21T08:16:01.501-04:002016-07-21T08:16:01.501-04:00Ahh - the Raleigh International- such a pretty bik...Ahh - the Raleigh International- such a pretty bike. You can always change gearing.<br /><br />Though this article primarily focused on Schwinn, and the series mostly deals with American mfg , the fate of Raleigh and a lot of other large European bike companies was eerily similar to Schwinn's. Different words, same tune.Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12110998345857993287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-78338692683665858232016-07-21T00:52:44.880-04:002016-07-21T00:52:44.880-04:00My first derailleur bike was a Schwinn Continental...My first derailleur bike was a Schwinn Continental ($103.95 a very expensive bike for someone just out of the USMC) that I got in May of 1971 after a six week wait because of the "Bike Boom". While waiting for it I came across the 1st ed. of Eugene Sloane's "Complete Book of Bicycling". In the book I found that I could have purchased for the same ~$100 a Raleigh Record DL-73, Peugeot UO-8, or an Italian enter level bike that weight ~10 pounds less. I rode & enjoyed the Schwinn Continental until the autumn of 1971, did complete overhaul on it & got ~$80 trade-in) when I stepped up to a Raleigh International (a second from the top in the Raleigh line i.e.531 D.B. tubes Nervex lugged frame with all Campy except Weinmann center pull brakes) for $328 total because it was available and a Schwinn Paramount cost $350 and you would have to wait several months to get it. Still have the International (mostly original except stem/handlebar upgrade to TTT) but my age/health don't allow me to push that gearing anymore. Cycling has been a very memorable part of my life the last 45 years.The Old Cycling Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18299720017133485446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-74651071973444697572016-07-20T22:02:14.874-04:002016-07-20T22:02:14.874-04:00I understand you point of view, since their closur...I understand you point of view, since their closure hit people that are close to you. Trust me, i am not completely cold to the individual hardship that an event like that cause to the families of the people working there.<br /><br />Bad management from third and fourth generation of family owned company is common. Hell, the "third generation curse" is a thing in economy. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00518909092982637229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-36531163595503030052016-07-20T21:49:53.975-04:002016-07-20T21:49:53.975-04:00I understand Brooks point, and i agree with it. It...I understand Brooks point, and i agree with it. Its an error made by a lot of industries who had near monopoly on their local market. When the trade between countries expanded, they often fell.<br /><br />I should know, my own region produced huge quantity of steel and textiles, and was hit very hard economically by their demise.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00518909092982637229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-78816463903559018842016-07-20T21:33:20.239-04:002016-07-20T21:33:20.239-04:00I should have thought that criticizing a brand tha...I should have thought that criticizing a brand that was often the first bike of many americans would result in a few replys...my goal was not to troll, i assure you. And thinking about it afterward i did see a Schwinn, a stingray. And i want to make a point clear: when i speak of inferior quality and not losing much, i speak of the last years of the brand, not all of its existence. Nor of the stickers put on Asian bikes. (and before someone take that badly, nothing against asian people or country either)<br /><br />@Fair enough, but i was talking about the 80's and 90's. This is when the people that i know used them. Most of us here are retrogrouches, we don't want the fastest, lightest thing on the market. Most buyers of race bikes do. And Schwinn did not offer that for years before its demise,nor it offered the best price on other type of bikes, and it did not offer the type of bike wanted by new riders, hence my sentence about its demise.<br /><br />Looking at the paramount more closely, a 531 tubed bike with Nervex lugs seems indeed a good start for a great bike. If one day i see one at reasonable price i will absolutely buy it. But here in Belgium this is not something i expect will happen.<br /><br />@Admin: But you did not have access to European brands...its easy to be very desirable when you are the only big dog in the market.<br />On the other hand in Europe we had bikes from all over Europe, with distinct styles. Some were only interested in the iconic Italians brands, others by the French, others lusted after Dutch Gazelles etc...so your first sentence do ring true.<br /><br />@Wolf: A nice Reynolds or Columbus tubed bike with Campagnolo or Shimano parts on it? :D While what i just written is true, i understand your point, but for a "normal" family i would say: a safe, reliable, easy to handle bike at a competitive price point. At the point of their demise, they did not offer that if i am not mistaken.<br /><br />" I wonder if that had never happened, would we all still be riding French and Italian racing bikes with the Campy gear hung on 'em, and nothing new under the sun?"<br /><br />I could live with that to be honest. In fact, if you add dutch on the list( i just love my Gazelle), its a very appealing "what if" in my book. :D <br /><br />@All: I get it. Schwinn was part of your childhood. But from my point of view, they are nothing special. I didn't see them under my favorites pro riders, i didn't lust after them at the bikeshop or in magazines...that brand do not have the same appeal to me. Hence the harsher opinion on it probably.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00518909092982637229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-36981819387046416292016-07-20T16:02:56.116-04:002016-07-20T16:02:56.116-04:00Le Belge--Prior to the Bike Boom of the 1970s, Sch...Le Belge--Prior to the Bike Boom of the 1970s, Schwinn was really the only high-quality bike brand in the US. The only imported bikes available were the English (or English-style) three-speeds. I think Retrogrouch's point is that Schwinn could have capitalized on their reputation, so that people like your American friends would have bought Schwinns instead of European bikes.Justine Valinottihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10852069587181432102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-32821696278335883512016-07-20T15:59:52.790-04:002016-07-20T15:59:52.790-04:00In addition to their failure--which you have descr...In addition to their failure--which you have described very well--to take the lead on trends, Schwinn's catalogues and advertising seemed to say, "Buy a Schwinn because your grandmother rode one." That is not the message teenagers, college students and twenty-somethings---who comprised most of the market for quality road, mountain and BMX bikes--wanted to hear.<br />Justine Valinottihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10852069587181432102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-48667560508659569922016-07-20T15:58:49.566-04:002016-07-20T15:58:49.566-04:00You may be right about that.You may be right about that.Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12110998345857993287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-40476740374926370962016-07-20T15:54:37.903-04:002016-07-20T15:54:37.903-04:00western manufacturers' hubris is not confined...western manufacturers' hubris is not confined to the bicycle industry. youcancallmeAlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02578252140097961816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-44629467077063663262016-07-20T14:59:21.194-04:002016-07-20T14:59:21.194-04:00Respectfully, I'd submit that "better&quo...Respectfully, I'd submit that "better" is a relative term. If all you wanted to do was ride around your neighborhood with your family, then what type of bike do you want? <br />When I was a boy, a Schwinn was a great choice, unless one decided to gamble with the unknown and send a princely sum of money to some mail-order outfit found at the back of a magazine. Otherwise, it was second-hand cruisers picked up from a garage sale. Aside from the Paramount, Schwinn never really made any pretense towards being actually meant for "racing", and the Paramount was a very nice bike considering it was a production bike meant for the masses. <br /><br />I (kind of) collect older Schwinns, and find them to be delightful "riders" that are easy and cheap to obtain/ maintain.<br /><br />"i don't think the cyclist lost much with the demise of Schwinn"- On one hand, I don't think that there was anything to lose at the end of Schwinn's life, they weren't filling any special role. Their bikes were OK, some were even really good, but nothing you couldn't easily get with Trek or Specialized or anybody else at the time. On the other hand, (and even though it was an agent of their demise) what would the cycling landscape look like without Schwinn pushing development of the Asian brands? I wonder if that had never happened, would we all still be riding French and Italian racing bikes with the Campy gear hung on 'em, and nothing new under the sun? I think the larger point isn't that the bikes weren't good, but that Schwinn became a poor decision-maker in a business sense.<br /><br /><br /><br />This is veering off-topic with Brook's post, sorry. Just can't help but to jump into a discussion of Schwinn...<br /><br /><br /><br />Wolf.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />N/Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14710395292374599493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-22913849079941082242016-07-20T14:18:00.335-04:002016-07-20T14:18:00.335-04:00It's probably hard for a non-North American to...It's probably hard for a non-North American to understand how desirable Schwinn bikes were, right up to the 1970s. I grew up in Canada watching TV ads for unattainable Schwinn bikes. (We had our own comparable brand, CCM, which ultimately suffered a similar fate to Schwinn.) When my family moved to the US in 1970, it meant I could finally get a Schwinn bike. I was over the moon. I studied the catalog for days and days before I finally picked a model that fit my family's budget -- a Deluxe Typhoon. It was a "middleweight", i.e. pretty heavy, but I loved it. There was nothing like having a Schwinn. Adminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15185035446536705221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-81560646570086996112016-07-20T14:13:17.375-04:002016-07-20T14:13:17.375-04:00This is a great post. Thanks for this, and for th...This is a great post. Thanks for this, and for this series.Adminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15185035446536705221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-36365370731037653562016-07-20T14:10:16.795-04:002016-07-20T14:10:16.795-04:00Perhaps "the cyclist" didn't lose mu...Perhaps "the cyclist" didn't lose much with the demise of Schwinn, but the real losers were hundreds of Schwinn dealers -many if not most were smaller family-operated franchises- their employees and families, not to even mention the factory labourers and their families.<br />"Complacency""Hubris""Incompetence" are just a few adjectives that describe the Schwinn family's management style... it almost qualifies as malfeasance. (i had family members and friends who either were dealers or worked at Schwinn HQ.)mike w.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10317710564489321690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-21927846553052458542016-07-20T14:03:52.530-04:002016-07-20T14:03:52.530-04:00Oh my, to believe there were never Schwinns that w...Oh my, to believe there were never Schwinns that were the very best requires that one be completely unaware of Schwinns role in mid 20th century racing, especially professional track and 6 day racing.<br /><br /> It was a long time ago and the company worked pretty hard to destroy itself, but when Professional Bike Racing was the biggest, highest paying professional sport in North America, Schwinn's best were second to none. If you've never seen one, find an opportunity to compare a Paramount(Road or Track) to all but the most exclusive European bike and you'll understand why they're thought so highly of. I prefer my fancy Brit bikes and Geurciotti's and Masi's etc. but my paramount doesn't have to be bashful around any of them...<br /><br />Spindizzy Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00194920301847931547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-13246084506733727892016-07-20T13:46:37.100-04:002016-07-20T13:46:37.100-04:00I have a Greenville era Schwinn, A 1985 Traveler m...I have a Greenville era Schwinn, A 1985 Traveler made on the 354 day of 1984, according to the stamping. Converted to a fixed gear, it's actually on of my favorite frames to ride. Simple lugged construction with 4130 butted tubing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-18927469450460172222016-07-20T12:56:58.970-04:002016-07-20T12:56:58.970-04:00Never saw a Schwinn in real life...reading you, it...Never saw a Schwinn in real life...reading you, it seems like they could not have competed with anyone really. And all my american friends who were radies at the time prefered Italian or french brands, who were better.<br /><br />Sure, i understand how you find it sad that schwinn do not realy exist anymore, but when you propose inferior quality, thats bound to happen. And i don't think the cyclist lost much with the demise of Schwinn...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00518909092982637229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8492685525705691186.post-65465621152405884382016-07-20T12:55:33.880-04:002016-07-20T12:55:33.880-04:00Fantastic posts (this whole series)! It's grea...Fantastic posts (this whole series)! It's great reads like these that keep me coming back for more.<br /><br />ahsieh8https://www.blogger.com/profile/06920140742214923423noreply@blogger.com