Anyhow, today is "Black Friday" but instead of going shopping and fighting the crowds at the mall and the big box stores, I got out for a bike ride with an old friend.
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| Hello, old friend. |
Since August I've put in a lot of cycling miles (about 1600!), but almost all of them have been commuting miles to and from work, on a totally non-retrogrouchy bike completely decked out for utilitarian duties: racks, fenders, lights, and an assortment of bags. That bike is pushing roughly 40 pounds fully equipped for commuting. Getting on the green Mercian felt so different, and not just because it's roughly 18 pounds lighter. It's got much more "aggressive" geometry and handles so nimbly. I've written lots over the years about how weight doesn't make that much difference on a bike - and if you're only talking about a couple of pounds, I still stand by that. But 18 pounds is pretty significant, and when accelerating from a stop, or hammering up over a small rise, the Mercian just feels so alive.
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| Campagnolo actually called their mechanism "Doppler" action. It very closely mimicked the feel of the wonderful Simplex Retrofriction, but didn't copy the inner workings. |
The shifting is another thing that I have to comment on. The bike I've been commuting on has Shimano STI controls, and I've gotten so acclimated to using them almost exclusively for the past few months that I had one (very brief) brain lapse where I felt the need to shift and actually reached for a nonexistent paddle behind the brake lever. DOH! Apart from that (really, very brief) moment, I really am happy to say how much I appreciate the Campagnolo retrofriction levers on the downtube. No, they are not as "convenient" for shifting as the modern integrated brake/shift controls. But the feel of these downtube levers, and the action of the old-school, non-indexing derailleurs is just so nice. There's such a tactile connection from the lever, through the cable, to the derailleur, and you can feel the shifts happening - feel the derailleur moving the chain across the cogs or the chainrings. That feedback is largely missing from today's integrated controls. This is especially true for front shifting, and I would even go so far as to say that Campy's '70s and '80s era front derailleurs shift better than front derailleurs from any brand made today. I really feel like the front shifting with Shimano STI is particularly abysmal, especially when shifting from the big chainring to the smaller one. Know what I'm talking about? You push the shift paddle until it gives a very distinct KERCHUNK, then the derailleur's return spring takes over and slams the chain down to the smaller ring. Campy's Ergo controls feel better to me in that regard, but I still enjoy the feel of a nice pair of downtube levers. I have no interest in electronic shifting.
Anyhow - I'll just wrap this up by saying what a pleasure it was to get out on this day-after-Thanksgiving on such a sweet-riding, nimble bike, and I hope some of you were able to enjoy a good holiday ride as well.
I'm glad to see you're OK. I was starting to worry that you had tempted fate a bit too much with a post called Death by Bicycle.
ReplyDeleteI have been riding STIs almost exclusively this century. I miss the ability to make slight adjustments of both levers to get the chain running in the best line. I find the hoods of old-style brake levers more comfortable as well. I'll have to root around in the loft and see what's up there for my next bike build.
One of my issues with the Shimano integrated controls is the lack of "trim" available for the front derailleur. I think the cages are wider to compensate for that lack, but then that just degrades the shifting a bit more. Thats another area where Campy Ergo is better. integrated definitely has its place, and I get why people like it, but I still just really love the feel of "manual" shifting.
DeleteI normally use shifters on the downtube, and I have no problem with the friction shifting (Suntour Cyclone II) on my racy little commuting bike. So I'm rather retrogrouchy myself. Still, what's all this about the unavailability of trimming for the front derailleur? The fashionable bike I tried most recently had Tiagra brifters, with a trimming mechanism built into that for the front derailleur. I duckduckwent for the combination of brifter and trimming and first the first page I got to was https://preview.tinyurl.com/trim-brift : we can infer that five years ago plenty of bikes had this ability without their owners realizing it.
Delete"No, they are not as "convenient" for shifting as the modern integrated brake/shift controls. But the feel of these downtube levers, and the action of the old-school, non-indexing derailleurs is just so nice. There's such a tactile connection from the lever, through the cable, to the derailleur, and you can feel the shifts happening - feel the derailleur moving the chain across the cogs or the chainrings. That feedback is largely missing from today's integrated controls. This is especially true for front shifting, and I would even go so far as to say that Campy's '70s and '80s era front derailleurs shift better than front derailleurs from any brand made today. I really feel like the front shifting with Shimano STI is particularly abysmal, especially when shifting from the big chainring to the smaller one. Know what I'm talking about? You push the shift paddle until it gives a very distinct KERCHUNK, then the derailleur's return spring takes over and slams the chain down to the smaller ring. Campy's Ergo controls feel better to me in that regard, but I still enjoy the feel of a nice pair of downtube levers. I have no interest in electronic shifting."
ReplyDeleteWay to present your romanticized Rivendelltology opinions as facts.
In what way is ANY of that presented as anything other than an opinion? But at least it is an opinion based on years of experience with regular friction levers, indexing shift levers, and integrated brake/shift levers from Campagnolo and Shimano (8, 9, and 10 speed versions). You're free to disagree if your experience is different from mine, and then you can start your own blog - but don't act like I'm trying to brainwash you with misinformation, or that I've misled you somehow with "false advertising." And if you're anti-Rivendell, or anti-Retro, then what are you even doing reading a blog called "The Retrogrouch" unless you're nothing more than a troll?
DeleteI think the way Brooks described it is spot on. I have both types of shifting, an old Campy friction 80's and a newer Dura Ace. The "kerchunk" is EXACTLY what the Dura Ace does.
DeleteGlad to see you back again. I well understand the feeling of going to a favorite sprightly bike after spending weeks on a commuter "beast".
ReplyDeleteI also understand what you say about STI, which is why I stopped using it after a few years.
Thanks for your blog, which is always a fun read. We must be of roughly the same vintage, because to me a "good" bike will always be a steel frame, probably a Colnago but maybe a Paramount, with Campy Record components and sewups. That's what the fast people rode when I started riding in high school, and even though I couldn't afford anything that fancy it's what I aspired to. I still want one! I have to admit, though, that even if STI shifting is soul-less it's still pretty darn convenient.
ReplyDeleteKyle, I'm glad to see you back at it. I knew you were fine as I see your entries on the CR list. I would just delete the stupid post from Shannon Trainer if it were my blog. Shannon probably never rode a friction shifting bicycle, and wouldn't know how to ride with one hand to shift. Like people who can't drive a manual shift auto.
ReplyDeleteJim Townsend
I did. It sucked then and it still sucks today. I've destroyed a lot of freewheels and chains with it.
DeleteI think that last comment just explained everything.
DeleteI love my STI bikes, although I have to admit I am partial to the early ‘90s Ultegra version on a Cannondale road bike (back when they were still made in PA). Feels a bit more solid than the newer Ultegra, but of course it only runs 8x and not the spiffy new, probably more than I need, 11x. I have one down tube ride that I still like to take out every so often, if only to justify to the wife why I still keep a 25 year old bike (fairly certain that when I croak, after she calls the insurance company, she will call goodwill).
ReplyDeleteThe convenience of STI sold me on the first ride. Yes, the front shifter is a bit annoying, and they take me forever to adjust, making them one of the few things a cheapskate like me is willing to pay a mechanic to do.
My mountain bike is a thumb shifter model that I will also not give up for fancier versions. Just love the simple solid feel of thumb shifters. And easy to slip out of indexing for when you mangle something or get lazy with maintenance.
Do you think STI has been a benefit for cyclists? I think so, in that it encourages more road bikes to be sold, given the convenience of it. Which maybe helps giving cyclists a more visible role on the road, rights and all? Of course there are negatives to it, since it also lets the less than civil get on a bike, like the ones I hear the complaints about ignoring rules of the road. To note, I am a stickler for stopping at stop signs, be it car or bike.
I've got thumb shifters on my bike, too. It was built circa 1987 as a mountain bike, though nowadays I use it for all of my rides, and only rarely off-road (never on mountains). I "upgraded" them last about ten years ago when one of the shifters broke due to a bad crash. They're indexed, but I still get a good "feel" from them when shifting, particularly when moving between chainrings.
DeleteI too am a stickler for following stop signs and yield signs. I've been honked at a few times over the years - while on my bicycle or in my car - for following those signs, but it doesn't budge me. They can honk all they want, I won't move until it's "safe to do so", in the words of my state's drivers' ed manual. Not stopping or yielding at those signs is at best boorish behavior, and at worst, something that leads to serious trauma or death. I'm not taking that chance in any vehicle. Somedays, though, it feels like I'm the only one who follows those signs...
Glad to see another post from you and that green mercian is a classic beauty
ReplyDeleteI have friction shifting on my 2001 Rivendell Road (with same super record derailleur but barend shifers (Silver from RBW)
As for SR or Record brakes, as aesthetically pleasing as they are, I have put VO Grand Cru and those TRP levers which I do find very comfortable. Also for my weakish hands , I find this combo brakes superbly.
All that said, though, classic Campagnolo is lovely kit; I confess I'm less enamoured of the look of the modern era components
Happy Thanksgiving (belatedly)...always enjoy reading your posts
Ryan Fleming - Winnipeg, Manitoba
Shimano dura-ace bar ends are pretty nice. They are 10-speed indexed rear and friction front. I put them on my Surly LHT commuter 3 years ago and liked them so much that I put another set on my new Leo Roadini.
ReplyDeleteI love the combination of indexed and friction.
I have the 9 speed version on my Rivendell. I like them a lot.
DeleteWelcome back! So relieved to see that you don't mind STI shifters too much...I fitted them to my 28 year-old Raleigh Royal (531st UK version) but I always had that nagging thought that 'Brooks would disapprove of this'! Now I know differently.....
ReplyDeleteTo Shannon Trainer.
ReplyDeleteI'll assume the surname isn't real, and a creation for representing the amount of effort you put into, what the rest of us refer to, simply as riding.
Believe it was the late Sheldon Brown who said, "if you're not being paid, your not training, you're just riding your bike".
Oy, take the anti retrogrouch grumpery elsewhere.
Brooks, you say STI doesn't have trim?
Curious that I'm alone in knowing they do indeed, have trim, wondering if I might be able to shed some light on this for you?
Set up is critical to it working properly, but when going from small to big, cable tension should be sufficient to make the cage rub just a touch, when the back is in the easiest cog. Yes, that's cross chaining, bear with me.
Then, when shifting from big to small, note a subtle click before the shift click. It drops the cage a few mm in, trimming the FD as you desire.
You're correct - and I overstated it when I said "no trimming," - as mine are set up and work as you describe - I should perhaps have said "limited" trimming, or something to that effect. It seems to me that the Campy Ergo has more "clicks" at the front for more/smaller increments of movement, and of course, a friction lever has no incremental limits.
Delete