Monday, January 13, 2014

Classic Tubes: Tange and Ishiwata

As the next installment of what I suppose has become a "series" on steel tubing used on classic bikes, I'll take some time to look at Japanese tubing manufacturers Tange and Ishiwata. Both companies made high-quality bicycle tubing that was in many ways the equal of European tubing giants Reynolds and Columbus -- although acceptance by the performance and high-end bicycle market (at least outside of Japan) took time.

Tange started out in 1920, originally producing bicycle forks, and expanding to butted tubing in the 1950s. By the 1970s, they had expanded to make all the frame components, including stays, dropouts and lugs. (Tange History)

Until the mid-80s Tange was probably best known for their mainstay tube sets, Champion #1 and #2 (later called simply #1 and #2) -- cold-worked, butted chrome-moly tubing that compared favorably to Columbus SL and SP tube sets. For instance, the down tube of Tange #1 was butted to .8/.5/.8 mm, while the #2 was .9/.6/.9 mm. (by comparison, SL was .9/.6/.9 - so Tange #1 was actually slightly thinner and lighter!) These tube sets were used on a lot of higher end Japanese-built bikes being imported to the U.S. in the late 70s and early 80s. There were also thicker-walled, heavier sets, called #3, #4 and #5, available for loaded touring and other applications where more durability was required.

Tange also made a manganese molybdenum alloy, Mangaloy 2001, that should have compared pretty favorably to Reynolds 531, at least in terms of its basic characteristics, though it was heavier, (thicker walled than Reynolds) much less expensive, and generally found on lower-end models. In the early 80s, some lower priced Treks (such as the 400 series) were built with it.

A cheaper tube set was created by Tange in the 80s: Infinity -- designed as a good quality but low-cost set for lower-priced bicycles. It was a seamed tubing, which meant that it started out as flat stock. It could be rolled out with different thicknesses along its length, then formed around a mandrel and welded into a tube. Additional working made the welded seam invisible. Many people would be turned off by the thought of seamed tubing, but in reality, there was not likely a big difference in strength. And the manufacturing method used meant that the butting could be customized without adding complexity or cost.

In 1985, Tange hit the big time when they came up with their heat-treated Prestige tubing. Like Reynolds 753, but made from chrome-moly as opposed to manganese alloy, Prestige had the tensile strength to be drawn to super thin-walled dimensions -- only 0.4 mm in the center section with the regular version. A "Super Lite" version of Prestige was only 0.3 mm in the center section! Another advantage was that, unlike 753, no special certification was needed to use it, so Prestige gained much more acceptance among frame builders. Versions of Prestige are still used today.

I read an article by builder Dave Moulton about a bike he built with Prestige -- a one-of-a-kind bike because at that point in his career, Moulton's bikes were almost all built with Columbus. (Pictured on the left)

Another interesting note about Tange tubing is their relationship with Tom Ritchey. When Ritchey was looking for someone who could put into production some new ideas he had for butted tubing -- with specially tapered and directional-designed butted sections -- he first approached Columbus. Apparently, they were unable to manufacture it. He then went to Tange, who had recently started making their heat-treated Prestige, and they were able to make it work and manufacture it. Ritchey "Logic" tubing was the result. (Ritchey In His Own Words).

It is pretty difficult to find the history of Ishiwata tubing. The earliest mentions I can find of it are from the 1970s, but nothing very specific. In any case, their best tube sets through the 70s and 80s were seamless, double-butted chrome-moly, labeled "019" and "022." The late Sheldon Brown's website has some info about Ishiwata, most of which in turn came from Andrew Muzi of The Yellow Jersey bike shop in Madison, WI. (see sheldonbrown.com)

In material composition and in specification, Ishiwata 019 and 022 were (like Tange #1 and #2) very comparable to Columbus SL and SP. In fact, many people claim that the Ishiwata tubes were, at least in their surface finish quality, even nicer than the much more expensive Columbus tubes. For instance, in the early 80s, Tom Kellogg, probably best known today for his Spectrum Cycles, was working for Ross Bicycles developing their "Signature" line of hand-built bikes (something like their answer to Schwinn's Paramount line). Kellogg specified Ishiwata in those bikes. I found a quote that I couldn't verify, but Kellogg reportedly said of Ishiwata tubing, "It's like little men polished the inside."

Early 80s catalog scan from the Equus Bicycle Info Project
The names "019" and "022" refer to the claimed weight of the tube set -- i.e., "019" (drawn to 0.8/0.5/0.8 mm) weighed 1.9 kilos, while "022" (drawn to 0.9/0.6/0.9 mm) weighed 2.2 kilos. Less well-known (and much rarer) are the "017" and "015" tube sets. Despite not being heat-treated, these tubes were drawn down to super-thin dimensions. The "017" was 0.7/0.4/0.7 mm, while the "015" was 0.6/0.4/0.6 -- with the down tube even thinner (0.35 mm!) in the center section! Needless to say, these were only used for track or time trial bikes, and likely only for very lightweight riders.

Ishiwata also produced triple-butted and quad-butted chrome-moly tubing, known as EX and EXO respectively. It is not unusual to find decent-quality Japanese-built bikes with those tube sets. In the 1980s, they were apparently even producing carbon-fiber tubing (in their catalog they were calling it CFRP - or carbon fiber reinforced plastic) and aluminum lugs to join the tubes. (see the catalogs at Equus Bicycle Info)

Look closely at that unique little tubing
sticker on 3Rensho frames and you'll see
 the Ishiwata name.

Of course, many Japanese manufacturers used Ishiwata tubing (sometimes labeled under other names, as on some Fuji bicycles). Some, like 3Rensho and Nagasawa had/have a very high profile and their frames are sought after. But a particularly notable user of Ishiwata outside of the Japanese manufacturers was Trek. 

In Trek's early years (mid 70s through early 80s, that is), they made bikes using Ishiwata, Reynolds, and Columbus. According to the Vintage Trek website and from the Trek brochures of the time, the frames were essentially the same -- certainly equal in quality -- only the tubing was different (and the Ishiwata-tubed models used SunTour dropouts as opposed to Campagnolo pieces -- but like the tubing, there was really no difference in quality). In those early years, the model numbers would indicate which tubing was used (5xx - Ishiwata 022; 7xx - Reynolds 531; 9xx - Columbus SL/SP). Mainly because of the dollar/yen exchange rate and other market-driven factors, the Ishiwata-tubed models were significantly less expensive than the others, which probably (unfairly) gave buyers the idea that they were somehow inferior. They weren't. Today, in the vintage bike marketplace, they can be a good value. In any case, by some time in the 80s, the Ishiwata tubing was dropped by Trek.

Ishiwata ended up going bankrupt in 1993, but some of their employees went on to found Kaisei which is being used by a number of steel-frame bicycle builders today. It has a well-earned reputation for quality.

Although it took time for Tange and Ishiwata to fully gain acceptance outside of Japan, especially for top-level bikes, there is no doubt that their quality was the equal of the European standards. Even though Japanese-built bikes, especially by the early to mid 80s, were (and still are) considered to be exceptionally well-crafted, especially for their price, for a while many fashion-conscious buyers of high-end, top-level bikes still looked for Reynolds or Columbus in their frames. The Trek example mentioned above is a pretty good illustration of that. But in today's vintage bike market, those bikes represent a real value -- super bargains. And the marketplace for new steel frames today doesn't really seem to discriminate the way it once did. Maybe it's because in a world of carbon fiber and welded aluminum bicycle madness, anyone buying a new steel frame is already bucking "fashion" enough that the brand or nationality on a little tubing sticker (assuming there even is one) just doesn't matter.

66 comments:

  1. So, what Japanese tubing would this be? This is on my Nishiki Ultimate.
    http://i.imgur.com/lrxW1.jpg

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    1. I wouldn't say I'm totally stumped, but I don't know if I can find a definitive answer on that one. Searching old Nishiki catalogs, the Ultimate is hard one to find -- though I did find several references saying that it was essentially the same as a model called the Professional -- and perhaps the model name was changed at some point. In any case, again looking through old catalogs, most references to tubing that I can find that actually specify a brand list Tange. So that would be my best guess.

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    2. Yes, your guess is as good as mine. I have another Nishiki with a similar tubing logo, only gold, so I think it was just their way of indicating double butted chrome moly tubing without specifying the brand.

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    3. I don't know what tubing that is, but I will add a data point: That's the same sticker as on my 1980 Nishiki Comp II which used Tange double butted tubes per their catalog. From the age, that means mine is either Champion #1 or #2. My seatpost diameter is 26.6 so I'd guess it's Champion #2. However, I don't know if that's the same sticker they put on all their double butted frames or specific to Tange #2 frames.

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  2. Hi, I recently discovered your blog and have enjoyed reading many of the posts. Today I spotted a halfway decent Shogun at my LBS. The sticker on the tubing said Tange 900. I knew I had recently read an article about the different types of tubing and then I remembered that I read it here. So I reread this post and surfed around to find out more. I came across this PDF copy of a 1988 Tange catalog from VeloBase.com. On page 17 the catalog lists Tange 900/1000 and Tange MTB 1000/1200 as being seamed not the Infinity. Did you misquote or is this in conflict with a different source? Thanks for all the interesting posts.

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    1. Hi -- thanks for writing. I did see that Tange catalog you refer to, as well as others. You are correct that the catalog specifically lists the 900/1000 tubing as seamed, but doesn't mention "seamed" in its description of Infinity. However, I found many other references to Infinity as also being a seamed tubing -- numerous posts on forums, as well as this article from Sheldon Brown's site: http://sheldonbrown.com/centurion/
      I believe that it may have been part of Tange's marketing plan with Infinity, to downplay the fact that it was also seamed tubing. If I recall correctly from old magazine articles in the 80s, Tange felt that their process of working Infinity made it virtually the same as seamless -- hence the name "infinity" -- no beginning, no end. Nevertheless, I've seen posts on forums where people say they could still see the seam (when looking down the inside of the seat-tube, for example).
      There is a difference between Infinity and 900/1000 -- they are both chrome moly, double butted, and seamed -- but the butting on the Infinity is a little different -- they call it "tapered butted" and the transition between the thicker and thinner parts of the tube is smoother and a bit more gradual. I believe Tange positioned Infinity as slightly above 900/1000. There could have been a slight difference in the specific formulation of the chrome-moly steel, or the process of working the Infinity could have been a little more expensive (more likely). Lastly -- does any of it make a big difference when the tubes are brazed together into a frame? Probably not. I've read lots of reviews of bikes built with 900/1000, Infinity, #1/#2, and even Prestige. And apart from a few grams difference in weight (which are very hard to notice when actually riding), they all can deliver a a nice ride. If you find a nice bike, that's built well, fits properly, etc. etc., I certainly wouldn't turn up my nose just because it had the less expensive tubing -- but it might make the 900/1000 bike a real bargain.

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  3. Thanks for the info, you are a fountain of knowledge. I don't need another bike at this time, it just peeked my curiosity and I'm always looking for decent vintage bikes. I need to finish my current Peugeot project, I believe it's a 79 PV10. I don't think those are collectors but it has nice 531 tubes and it's my size.

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  4. been looking at a nice old Ridgeback Rapide frameset built using infinity tubing just cant make my mind up

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    1. Well - don't let the tubing influence your decision too much -- the infinity tubing, even though it's "seamed" shouldn't be considered "inferior." It's a perfectly good application for the product, even if it's a less expensive manufacturing technique.

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  5. At one point, I owned and rode two Treks: one built from Columbus SL tubing, the other from Ishiwata 022. I think any ride difference between the two had to do with the geometry: the Ishiwata bike, designed as a sport-tourer, had somewhat more relaxed geometry than the Columbus bike, which was intended as a criterium bike.

    I think the fact that Trek built the racing bike out of Columbus and the sport-tourer out of Ishiwata is indicative of the misperceptions you point out in this post. The Columbus frame, being made for racing and more expensive, was perceived as "better" by much of the cycling public at the time.

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    1. I think nowadays, the Ishiwata-tubed Treks would be a great vintage find.

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    2. I just got one! It is a smooth ride.

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    3. And I currently ride those two Treks

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    4. I had and sold a trek tx-500 circa 78 made of ishiwata 0.22. I almost immediately regretted selling it once I watched the person ride off even though it was a little small for me. That bike had a magic quality about it.

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  6. My son gave a 1975 Sekai 500 Sport frame to me and I am looking for some answers about the tubing. The seat tube O. D. is 28.6mm and had a silver foil tubing sticker reading "CROMO 4130. All the info I can find says the I. D. should be 27.0mm. However, being a retired Master mechanic and machinist I carefully measured the bore & found it to be 27.5mm! Yep! Did it 3 times & that's correct. Inspected the inside & it has NOT been honed or otherwise modified. What is this tubing?

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    1. It's a tough one to say for sure. For whatever reason, companies didn't always identify the brand of their tubing, even though they did label the type (Cr-Mo, High Carbon, etc.). It's a Japanese-built bike - which would make it almost certainly Japanese tubing. It could be either Tange or Ishiwata, but it would be almost impossible to figure out which for certain. However, based on your measurements, you know that it's probably drawn to the same specs as the better quality tubes - like the Champion #1, or the Ishiwata 019 (or, at least the seat tube is). There is a little bit of info on the Classic Rendezvous site about Sekai -- they were a company in Seattle that imported Japanese frames.

      http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Japan/Sekai_main.htm

      There's a somewhat blurry scan of an old Sekai catalog on the Yellow Jersey site that lists a 500 model as having Ishiwata tubing.

      http://www.yellowjersey.org/SEKAI75.JPG

      Neither of those is likely to give you the definitive answer -- but it's a start.

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  7. Please forgive me for my error! I listed the inside dimension incorrectly. The sites call out the inside diameter as 26.0mm. My frame measures 26.4, which allows a wall thickness of 1.1mm rather than 1.3mm. This would seen to indicate a better tubing due to thinner wall thickness. None the less, I'm bringing this one back to life with a full Superbe Pro groupset and fitted with 700c wheels the right way by lowering the rear bridge. It is a terrible thing when a decent steel frame is retired to the trash. Keep saving those old souls!

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  8. I have a Raleigh with a Wishbone rear post and Tange infinity cr-mo tapered double butted tubing. I hear this is rare, do you know much about the model?

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    1. You didn't mention if it was a road bike or a mountain bike, so it's hard to narrow it down. Does it have a model name anywhere on it? The only Raleighs I'm familiar with that had a wishbone rear stay configuration were some of the Raleigh USA Technium models that had bonded-together frames that combined steel with aluminum in different frame tubes. Some of them were decent bikes, but I dont know how rare they were. I don't think they were generally high-end bikes, but sme of them may have been.

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  9. Ohh sorry. I believe it was mountain bike model, but now its a road/commuter bike. At the moment I don't know what model. It says Crosslight on it...apparently it is close to their Serengeti model.

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  10. There is an older 1974 catalog of Ishiwata's tubing (as well as many more) here:
    http://cyclespeugeot.web.fc2.com/reminiscencebyenglish.htm
    The thing I find interesting - stated on the second of three pages under "Results" is "Victorious The World Proffesional Road BARCELONA 1973 BARCELONA (SPAIN)" The spelling is as printed.
    This would have been Felice Gimondi riding a Bianchi produced by the Reparto Corse department. I think I have seen old photos of this bike (with weight saving details like the Super Record brake pivots were brazed to the frame) but I never would have thought it was made with Japanese tubing brand that's not well remembered. The catalog also mentions a amateur and pro victories in cyclocross in 1974. These are the kind of results that make a pedigree.
    Also worth mentioning in the story of Ishiwata is the buy-out in the early 90s where the resources became Kaisei tubing. Another highly regarded but not well know brand that's still going well today.
    I was researching because I have an early 80s Trek 510/515 This bike was a deal at $500 especially when compared to the 531 version that was $100 more. They had the exact same parts spec' so the only difference was equal quality but not well-known tubing.

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    1. Have a 1982 Bianchi Limited made with Ishi 022 full frameset built in Japan for Bianchi with Sugino, SunTour Cyclone, DiaComp components. Mighty sweet ride to this day!

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    2. I have a 1979 Trek 530 with Ishiwata 022 tubing and an 86 Trek with Reynolds 531. I can absolutely say that the Ishiwata is stiffer. My 531 ghost shifts when I stand to climb hills and the Ishiwata doesn't. I can also tell when I am going down hills at high speed. The Ishiwata is solid. I weigh 225 lbs. I have heard the older Columbus tubing had even more flex. However, I have a 2000 Voodoo Wazoo with Columbus Neuron tubing that is at least as stiff as the Ishiwata. It feels stiffer but the frame is smaller so I'm not sure. The Ishiwata tubing is awesome, I love the ride.

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  11. typical oops . . . I hadn't read all of the page Ishiwata/Kaisei history is well covered.

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  12. Ishiwata tubing was used for "Revell of London" bikes in the UK during the 80s, which were fairly good bikes. Particularly Revell Ritmo's came with Ishiwata 022 tubing. Other models came with Reynolds 531.

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  13. Just wondering where the Miyata Triple-butted and Splined tubing fits in here. Are they part of the Tange or Ishawata families?

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    1. Miyata reportedly had their own tubing mill, so they were separate from the other two. I have no doubt it was high quality tubing, though I don't think they made it available to other manufacturers -- though if they did, it probably bore different names. Miyata was a pretty big operation anyhow, as they made bikes for a lot of other brands - such as Univega and Specialized in the 80s.

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  14. I have a 'Saracen' road tourer circa 1982 from the UK - Sold by Bell St Bikes in London. It has Ishiwata 0245 Butted tubing. It was a little less expensive than the Reynolds 531 but am wondering if you had any thoughts on this? Obviously a little heavier than the 022 tubing.

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  15. Any thoughts on the Ishiwata 0245? Obviously heavier but it quite a smooth ride. Have it on a touring frame 'Saracen' circa 1982 sold in London from Bell St Bikes

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  16. Hello. I recently purchased a Colin Laing "Le Colin" bicycle with 015 tubing. It is a bit of a franken bike. However, it has a 64cm seat tube and a 58cm top tube. Really odd measurements for a 015 bike! It is not a track bike and has eyelets on both dropouts. Lugged and pretty stiff for a 015.

    Any thoughts on this frame. Does time trial jump out? Perhaps built in 1992 when Ishiwata went bankrupt and their tubes were cheap?

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    1. Tough to say - I can't imagine using tubing that thin on anything but a super light racing frame, like a time trial machine as you suggest. But eyelets on the dropouts sure don't point to racing of any kind. A puzzle, to be sure.

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  17. Hi, Kyle. This post keeps coming up as I research tubing. I have one suggestion: you say that Tange Champion #1 and #2 compare favorably to Columbus SL and SP. Actually, Tange #1 is lighter than Columbus SL, with the main tubes at .8/.5/.8. SL is .9/.6/.9. That is about the same as Tange #2.

    Jim Townsend

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    1. You are right, Jim -- funny I never caught that, and I think you're the first to mention it.

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  18. Hi Brooks, love your Retrogrouch site. I have a 1982 mint condition Araya Aero bike with a full Shimano Dura Ace AX group, including the unique Shimano bars, that I scored on Pinkbike. The frame has interesting lugs and what the '82 Araya catalogue says is Araya aero tubing. The following year, the tube set was listed as Tange aero. Since Araya has made rims for many years it's reasonable that they also did make frame tubes for a while. What say you?

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    1. There were some Japanese bikes from the 70s and early 80s that used Araya branded tubing - some had a sticker that was an obvious copy of the classic Reynolds 531. I don't know if Araya actually made the tubing (which is certainly possible) or if they contracted with a company like Tange to make it. Apart from online forums, it's hard to find much solid info. I agree, though, that it's certainly reasonable to think that they may have made it.

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  19. Hi Brooks, I'm an infrequent visitor here, mostly get here when searching different subjects. I have a modest collection of steel frames, a TI Raleigh, 531 tubes, a Novarra "Team" mtn bike, Prestige tubes, a Serotta Couer D Acier, Columbus tubes, A Carl Strong custom, Columbus Spirit tubes, Kelson custom, also Spirit tubes, a custom Stout, Columbus SL and a riv Rambouillet.
    My question concerns the Rambo: The work sheet from Grant specifies Ishiwata tubes, some heat treat, some not. This bike was built in 2004, 64 cm frame, and IIRC buttes are mostly .8-.6-.8 with 1.0 fork and .8-1.0 seat tube.If Ishiwata was gone by the early 90's where did Grant source his Ishiwata tubes? This frame came from the Toyo shop in Japan. Will look forward to your reply.
    Kendall

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    1. Interesting question. I only have guesses for answers. It's possible that a shop like Toyo had a stockpile of Ishiwata tubing - but a 10-year supply? Might be a stretch. It's also possible that it's Kaisei and Grant was just calling it by the old name. But I've seen several sources that said Ishiwata was gone by 93, and Kaisei was formed soon after by former employees, using the same methods, etc. they even continued some of the model names. Only Grant P. could tell you for sure.

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  20. Thanks for your reply. It's not a biggie, as others have said, paint a good set of tubes and you'll never be able to tell them apart. The coolest thing about thin walled steel tubes is the beautiful crystal like sound one gets when tinking them with a fingernail. I like the Rambo but it is overbuilt by my standards. Grant called it a sporty credit card tourer, I think it could handle 40 lb panniers front and rear and never suffer from the load. I have had three pretty good wrecks in my life. One, on the REI mtn bike, I landed off a jump hard enough to taco the front wheel and all it did was break off a canti boss, and the Prestige frame on that bike is pretty thin walled stuff. Mini van took me out on a Soma Smothie, it destroyed the front fork and ovaled the head tube. I put the head tube on a makeshift mandrel, hammered it round and continued to ride that bike for several more years. My Stout went through a McDonalds drive through in a roof rack, hit hard enough to pull the entire rack off the top of my Landcruiser and the bike didn't hiccup. I believe that steel bikes are a lot tougher than we are told by the "experts".

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  21. I just read this somewhere "I still have the Apex, though all the parts were upgraded when I was a kid (still fits great, though!) and out of all my bikes, it rides the best. Second best is my 90 MB-1 which is Prestige. Granted, there's more to a bike's ride than tubing.... I also have a GT Avalanche that is TT GTX tubing, it is very non-compliant, but it's super stiff and takes off like nobody's business. Nowhere near as pleasant to ride as the Apex or the MB-1. " This is what I was trying to say about the Diamond Back Apex. Now - I just need to compare X)1 and Apex frame dimensions and my comparison may prove to be a fruitful one.
    ]

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  22. Hi, I use your site as a resource for many things. Thanks for the dedication. I have a sticker on an old Miele frame (manufactured in Toronto) with a Magmy Ishiwata sticker on it. All other information is rubbed off. I can't find any information on this steel blend, can you help?

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  23. Hi, I also have a Magmy Ishiwata sticker on my 1981 Bianchi, purchased in Toronto. The sticker reads "Double Butted Tubes, Stem, and Stays" . Does anyone have information about this type of tubing?

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    1. I believe the Magny tubing was likely similar to the Tange Mangaloy - a manganese molybdenum alloy. Even though Reynolds 531 was also a manganese alloy, it was often sold as being maybe a step below chrome-moly.

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  24. I have a late 80's Nishiki International built with Tange 1 OS seamless chrome moly tubing. I can't find much info on the Tange 1 OS tubing. Where did it fall in the Tange line?

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    1. Tange #1 was the top-of-the-line for performance bikes up until the introduction of Prestige. OS would be "oversized" (about 1/8" larger diameter than the standard tubing. I can't find a spec sheet on #1 OS, but I'd expect it to be slightly thicker-walled, and therefore slightly heavier than the Prestige.

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  25. Is there a device to measure tubing wall thickness in-situ?

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    1. I'm not aware of one. One trick people sometimes use to get an idea of wall thickness is to look at the seatpost size that a frame takes. Assuming the outer tubing diameter is standard size, a larger seatpost would indicate thinner walled tubing. Though it would be tough to get a pair of calipers inside a bottom bracket, the ends of the seat tube and down tube are usually visible there.

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    2. Hi, Brooks, you can get a telescopic gauge in there, they come in several different sizes for differing diameters, the chinese ones are real cheap, and accurate enough, with a bit of care.
      Semper Fi,
      John McClain

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  26. I have a bianchi with ishiwata tubes. Really

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  27. Hi, I just recently found this blog, I've bought a surface rusted frame off ebay, knowing it was from a higher end bike by the shape of the lugs. Having got it, (dent, bend and all), it is the lightest frame I've ever owned.
    It's Tange number one, 55 cm, same length top tube, has two "eyelets" cast in the bottom bracket, with channels cast, for deraileur cables, Shimano rear drops, easily takes a 130mm axle. It's marked on the bottom bracket, 550 CMWH, 89008, I suspect the "550" is seat post length. The rear brake caliper tube is set in diamond shaped lugs, pierced, on the face of the cubical center with the hole for the brake mount shaft marked OIPIEMME MOD DEP in about 16th inch letters. The frame weighs 3 pounds, five ounces with the rust removed (only surface rust, no deep pitting). It also is silver brazed for all the lugs except the rear dropouts. I used to build bikes back in the 60's-70's, when Reynolds or Columbus was pretty much the only choice for high end. I've never seen a frame all silver brazed, and it's very good quality brazing material, high silver content. It was apparently in a crash, had a 1/4 in deep dent in the top tube, a quarter of the way from the head tube, under right side, top tube bent 6 or 7 degrees. I drilled an eighth in hole opposite the dent, domed a long punch, and smoothed out the dent, quite well, considering, and with that, most of the bend left, and I used my weight and some fire wood, to get the tube straight, bouncing on the tube, frame suspended between wood, from floor. I've got a Trek 850 I used for years, cross training, (two decades in the Corps), and ten years or so ago, bought a Giant, in very good condition, being among the earliest, for some 35 dollars, it's light, I'd guess 23 or so pounds, handles tight, like the head angle is steep, quite solid for taking off, with all Shimano exage group. I just found it again, in a shed a few months ago, and have been putting it in riding shape, new tires, cables, chain, but that is about it, it's better than my best bike before I graduated, in 75, lighter, better components, and I'm enjoying getting back into biking. I've got multiple sclerosis, but I've dealt with it since 93 by P.T. doubling down on my training at the time, and hope to be able to do some riding, getting the wind I can't get running. I can't run anymore, used to do marathons and working towards a triathlon when I went down. I at least want to ride in the M.S. bike ride. Any ideas what kind of bike my frame came from? I've got a fork with it, but it's not a direct match unless someone would use Campi drops on the fork, with Shimano on the rear. It's not very important, just curious, and this seems the place to come.
    Semper Fidelis,
    John McClain

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    1. I'm not sure I could tell what brand the frame is from the description- but if it was built with Tange #1 it was a good quality one. You wouldn't use that tubing to make a cheap low end bike. That rear brake bridge probably says "Gipiemme" with a G, not an O - an Italian maker of components and also some frame-building bits. It would be odd to have Campagnolo dropouts on the fork and Shimano in back, but anythings possible, or it could be a mismatch. If there's a serial number on the fork, it should match the one on the frame, but lots of makers didn't bother numbering forks. I'd say just put it together and have fun.

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    2. Thanks, Brooks, I am dedicated to preserving old steel, used to be cars, motorcycles, and bikes, just had to ride the Giant Perigee I'd accidentally bought, and doing so, got the itch again. Is it common for frames be silver brazed, I've never seen them way back when, and been out of the game for thirty plus years, but seeing it made me sure it was better than I suspected. Is there anything I can do that would enable you to identify it at least, to its maker? I've got about 80% of the parts to build, a friend, hotrodder, is going to take the frame and shoot some paint on it, and fork, so I should be working out the bugs shortly. I'd been happy to shoot some pictures, if that would help, but don't want to consume too much of your time.
      I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off, because, damn it, I'm getting older a lot faster these days!
      Semper Fi,
      John McClain

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    3. Hi Brooks, I got a question for you. On that Tange frame I have found, it had a deep dent in the right of the upper tube, a couple minor dents in the down tube, right at the headset, (really minor) and one in the seat post tube, also minor, clearly a crash, from my experience, long ago. I ended up drilling an 1/8 inch hole opposite the deep dent, maybe a quarter diameter depth, domed a long punch, and massaged the dent so it looks like about 20 small dents, 20 thousandths deep, almost marbled, it pulled a couple degrees of bend out, and jumping on it, carefully balanced on strong centers, on firewood, I got the top tube just about perfectly straight. I'm torn between filling the hole with silver braze, because the lugs are, or torch welding with mild rod, any suggestions? Hopefully get the frame and forks painted this next week, a friend finishing up his 34 pickup, still has his paint set up, and will do a very professional job. I've got his Harley engine in my shop, being rebuilt, a 74, set up as a "classic chopper", I've been pulling him up into machine work for almost twenty years, can't find a single apprentice, something about physical labor and steel, metal, is heavy, sharp, people get cut, and bleed. This is one of the best personal websites I've ever seen, might be my interest, but it's clear, there's more giving here, than taking, and that's a real value. Great to know what I found, and not just be guessing, hope you're around for a good time hence.
      Semper Fi,
      John McClain

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    4. Well, I'm not a framebuilder, so I'm not the best person to ask. As for what I'd do, I'd send it to a framebuilder for any repairs needed. But if you have the skills/ability/tools to do it, I'd say that welding with such thin-walled tubing could be a mistake. And I've read that silver braze is not the best for filling holes and gaps. Brass or bronze is better for that, but you'd want material that melts at a very low temperature so as to do the least damage to the tubing.

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  28. Hi Brooks, I considered what you said, saw it quite reasonable, got about a quarter inch blue cone on my torch, a little light blue "rich" streaks, about five seconds against the frame and end of braze rod, and had a puddle, pulled the torch, it was solid, a bit high, less than fifteen seconds of fire. A couple minutes with a file, some scotchbrite, and it turned out beautiful. A friend should be by tomorrow and pick it and fork up, for paint. I am a fifty year welder, and started with gas, and have mig and tig plus plasma in my shop, It's just been forty years since I worked with tubing that thin.
    Thanks much for the advice, love this blog, got my heart pumping, when I saw it.
    Semper Fi,
    John McClain

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  29. Hi Brooks, if I were regularly working on repairing frames, I'd take a set of inside calipers, say six inch, like dividers, bend them 90 degrees right below the adjustment screw, the kind with "toes sticking out", and they could easily be inserted through the bottom bracket, and adjusted to feel, and removed and measured with a micrometer, getting within a thousandth or so. I had no problem measuring, with a machine shop full of measuring tools, but for the bike mechanic, spring dividers sell for a few dollars, even good ones, and would easily do the trick.
    Semper Fi
    John McClain

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    1. Resurrecting this thread, the serial number you gave in the first post looks like a Waterford and silver brazing is their preferred method, evolved from the Schwinn Paramount days. They have a page at https://waterfordbikes.com/fv/serial-numbers/ that describes the code they used, one of the most informative of any bike manufacturer, ever. Waterford, of course, is a top US builder and has never produced anything but very high quality, handmade framesets. They are the true "keepers of the flame" for the original Schwinn Paramount line, even though they no longer hold rights to or use the brand or model name. If you find yourself with some extra cash, they will perform outstanding repair and refinishing of steel frames as well.

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  30. Hi Brooks, I really enjoy your posts!!! I am seeking the answer to the following question: What variety of Tange tubing is used on my 1986 Bianchi Limited? The tubing is described in the 1986 Bianchi catalog as "Tange double-butted chrome-moly frameset in superset design". Any assistance you can give me on answering my question will be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Brooks! :)

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  31. Hi Brooks, To answer the (admittedly obscure) 1986 Bianchi Limited question posed immediately above, I decided to go directly to the folks at Tange. Last night I got my answer. It turns out the 1986 Bianchi Limited has Tange Champion No. 1 chro-mo tubing, made to Bianchi's specifications, double-butted, with 0.8-0.6-0.8 dimensions. There you have it! Incidentally, in tracking down cotnact information for Tange, I happened upon some info regarding the Tange Ultimate tubing, and the Yasujiro Svelte bike, which Tange touts as the lightest steel bike made. http://www.yasujirobike.com/product_detail.php?sn=27
    Looks awesome!!!

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  32. Can you elaborate on why Tange Mangaloy 2001 is inferior to Reynolds 531ST? I looked up weight comparisons and it is 115 grams heavier for a frame, doesn't seem huge.

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  33. Hi Brooks, I’ve read through all the article and comments hoping for some insight on a vintage Bianchi I just bought and fixed up. It’s a lugged steel road bike, probably from 1978-80 based on the faded decals. I can’t figure out the exact model or year though and I thought it might help to figure out the tubing first. The sticker on the seat tube says Bianchi A.B. Tubi reinforzati. However, when I took everything apart, I saw the steering tube is stamped ISHIWATA 0.1 with an odd logo I've never seen. It looks like a circle with SIJ reading through it up and to the right. I haven't been able to find many examples of this tubi reinforzati or any explanation of them.
    Did the earliest Japanese made Bianchis hide the fact that they used Japanese tubing? I'm not sure if it's original but I'm also curious about the handle bar stem. It has the same odd logo with 7883 below the max height line. On the horizontal portion, it's also boldly stamped ACE on both sides. Is this also an Ishiwata product, and could it help ID the frame? My best guess based on the dropouts and the cable guides is a late 70s, lower end touring model. If it's any help, the components are all Dia Compe, Sakae, and Suntour with a Tange Levin headset. Neither the crown or the seatstays have any Bianchi stamps. Let me know what you think!! Thanks!!

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  34. Bianchi models, names, and specs are kind of all over the place - and I'm no expert on them. I do know, however, that there were a lot of Japanese - and later Taiwanese - built Bianchis in the '80s. It the tubing is listed as Bianchi, then I do suspect that it's actually Japanese made tubing. (I mean, Bianchi sure didn't make the tubes). It was not unusual for some frame makers to make up their own labels for tubing produced in Japan - to sort-of disguise the real source. Really not sure about the stem. I'm unaware of Ishiwata making stems - and it can be hard to use a single component, like a stem, to help identify a frame, or even a complete bike model. But the mix of Japanese components throughout the bike are another sure sign that this was a Japanese-built model. My guess - lower price, but probably still a nice bike on the whole.

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    1. Also, Ishiwata and Tange manufactured steel products, and a stem from the 1970s on up on a road bike of anything but the lowest quality would almost certainly be an aluminum alloy. Reinforzati on an Italian frame tube sticker indicates butted tubing, so it's not a bottom-end frame.

      On the earlier post about Bianchi Limited tubing, I was a manager in a shop that sold Bianchis in the 1980s and, while the marketing term "superset" rings bells, I don't recall what it actually meant. I do find it hard to believe it is Tange #1, though, as the Limited was a nice, mid-range, Asian-sourced road bike, originally equipped with Shimano 600 components. It had fairly tight geometry for a sport tourer, but it was the highest-placed model that still had fender eyelets. Such lightweight tubing would seem a poor choice for a bike in this place in Bianchi's pecking order. We sold more Limiteds than any other model, and it was especially popular with the emerging triathlete market, which had not yet adopted modified time trial bikes. Bianchi was big on mixing tubing, and had many models that had only enough of a brand name tubing to justify a particular tubing sticker. I'm betting the "Superset" term meant that the main tubes were Tange and the stays and possibly the fork were high-tensile steel, but I really don't recall. In that range, the Asian models had better workmanship than the Italian ones, and we always felt more comfortable selling a customer a Limited than something like a Giro, which was the next model up, Italian-made, and had Columbus tubing and the the beautiful, but technically inferior Campagnolo Victory group. In those days, Bianchi was doing weird things like putting a Super Record outer chainring on a Gran Sport crank because they thought that the customer's eye would stop there. They were not into putting money or quality into places where it didn't show.

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  35. Hello Brooks, I have a beautiful near mint 1983 Raleigh Super Course, and of "course" Raleigh or whoever the company is behind the name, uses a Reynolds like sticker saying "built with Raleigh 555sl double butted main tubes chrome moly". The catalog says the entire frame is chrome moly which I believe considering the bikes weight. Anyway do you think this means it's TANGE. Also below it say's "Made in Japan" thankfully!

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    1. That tubing is almost certainly Japanese in origin. Probably Tange, or possibly Ishiwata, but I’ve never seen any concrete proof of either. You might enjoy this article, where the Raleigh tubing is referenced: http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/2015/07/reynolds-stickers.html

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